Just Overwhelmed.

Discussion about Amiga / C64 / Demoscene music and the ExoticA music archive. Favourite music, new rips, musicians, demo sounds, audio software. It's all welcome here.

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Black Spathi
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Just Overwhelmed.

Post by Black Spathi »

Hi everyone.

Well, fifteen years ago or so I bought an A500. And I started to play some games, and watching neat demos. And one day I came across a little app called soundtracker, and I was like :shock: . So I started to play with it. And needing samples and stuff, I learned to rip games' files. And learned a little music through making nice covers and remixes of every game music I could grasp. Then came Noisetracker, Protracker, Startrekker, OctaMed, and so on.

Some day, my A500 died. Spare parts were hard to find in my country, so I finally (sigh) moved on PC... but thank goodness, there was a little app called Fasttracker. So I kept tracking, even composing for short movies and local commercials. Then came Fasttracker 2, and ModPlug (Fasttracker 3 never seemed to work properly) and one day I found WinUAE. It's been four years since that.

And yesterday, surfing and looking for ADFs, I come across this site. And I am like :shock: .

You have a wonderful part of my youth in your archive. A big thank you for that. But -finally- here comes the topic...

STAR CONTROL, from Accolade. No mods??? No samples??? No anything???

Well, actually I am a big Star Control freak, so I kept the two original Amiga Disks in a box. How may I contribute? ADF's? ripped files?

Just ask 8)

shd
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Re: Just Overwhelmed.

Post by shd »

Black Spathi wrote: STAR CONTROL, from Accolade. No mods??? No samples??? No anything???

Well, actually I am a big Star Control freak, so I kept the two original Amiga Disks in a box. How may I contribute? ADF's? ripped files?
Just ask 8)
If you can rip the musics out of the game I am interested. In the best case it's just a simple module rip :)

shd / uade team
http://uade.ton.tut.fi

cf
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Re: Just Overwhelmed.

Post by cf »

Black Spathi wrote:Well, actually I am a big Star Control freak, so I kept the two original Amiga Disks in a box. How may I contribute?
with original disk, the best is CAPS format. take a look at http://www.caps-project.org
ask for the dumping tools and send the Raw dumps to caps team (and scans of cover box, manual, disks...)
I think this game never capsed

and if the game is not protected with special disk format, you can also make ADF dumps, with scan of manual if password protection

shd
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Re: Just Overwhelmed.

Post by shd »

cf wrote:
Black Spathi wrote:Well, actually I am a big Star Control freak, so I kept the two original Amiga Disks in a box. How may I contribute?
with original disk, the best is CAPS format. take a look at http://www.caps-project.org
ask for the dumping tools and send the Raw dumps to caps team (and scans of cover box, manual, disks...)
I think this game never capsed
CAPS techniques are unnecessary complex in this case. SC doesn't have a disk protection, so an ADF image is just better. However, a crack is needed to overcome the inconvenient instruction manual based protection. Fortunately there is already lots of cracked SC ADF's around in the net.

Anyway, having the manuals scanned would be nice :)

fiath
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:08 pm

Post by fiath »

I have to disagree! Without giving it the CAPS treatment, how do you know if the disks have not been modified? Also, this game does not appear to have been preserved yet, so it makes it all the more important to get it done. :)

shd
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star control

Post by shd »

fiath wrote:I have to disagree! Without giving it the CAPS treatment, how do you know if the disks have not been modified? Also, this game does not appear to have been preserved yet, so it makes it all the more important to get it done. :)
It's hd installable by the game authors. One doesn't have disk protections on hd installed games.

shd / uade team

fiath
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Post by fiath »

I think you misunderstand. I do not mean copy protection, I am talking about disks modified after they were duplicated - by save games, hiscores, viruses, hacking, etc. etc. If the disk has been modified, we can tell. However, we need the original disk to see this.

Or perhaps even it is second-hand and is a copy over the original disk. This is even more likely with disks with no protection, because people can "restore" from a backup - but this means the original disks are no longer authentic.

If you have a hard disk installer with the game - that is great, but you still cannot be sure that what you have is an authentic copy...

We want to preserve all games, not just those with copy protection - for exactly the above reasons. Then we can be 100% sure we genuinely have an authentic, error free original and preservable copy.

shd
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CAPS imaging

Post by shd »

fiath wrote:I think you misunderstand. I do not mean copy protection, I am talking about disks modified after they were duplicated - by save games, hiscores, viruses, hacking, etc. etc. If the disk has been modified, we can tell. However, we need the original disk to see this.
It is still unnecessary complex to use CAPS images instead of ADF since copy protection is not present. And what is your comparison standard for the original, cracked versions or?

shd
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Re: CAPS imaging

Post by shd »

[quote="shd"And what is your comparison standard for the original, cracked versions or?[/quote]

My bad. Have to add to myself. Then I assume your refence is _multiple_ original copies, right? Even so, if it doesn't have disk protection, read errors would be detected by ADF imaging. Modifications would be detected only by differences in multiple copies. Or does CAPS have some magic forensic technology that shows modifications?-)

shd / uade team

fiath
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Post by fiath »

Not sure why you say "unnecessary complex to use CAPS images"...? Dumping disks is quite straight forward. Perhaps slightly more involved that creating ADF's but that is more due to ensuring a system is is in "good health" before dumping anything, quality assurance and all that. Sure, the technology is complex, but the user doesn't need to see any of that.

Anyway. Yes. I mean that even if you have an original disk, it does not mean that you have an original game.

It might be:

1) A copy. Perhaps the disk stopped working and a previous owner copied over it with another disk (even if original). It may still be the original data - but you can no longer be sure, what if something happened to the source disk before it was copied? Even we could not determine if the original disk was modified in this case, because the modifications are "hidden" by the copying - since it was then all written with the same system. (see below about how we detect this)

2) What if your copy has had suffered virus modification/damage? It doesn't have to be be actually infected. What if a previous user saved their games or hiscores to the original? All this means the copy is no longer authentic.

3) If a previous owner mucked about with the disk/game data, it might no longer work properly. This is pretty unlikely without it being an obvious crack, but it does happen.

So, all in all, you may *think* you have an original authentic copy - but you may actually not at all. Copies which are "flawed" from a preservation point of view (as above) should not be regarded as a digitally preserved copy of the game.

You may very well have an authentic copy, but for all the above reasons, we prefer to be sure about it. :)

In a real situation: Once recent contributor was "sure" all his (unfortunately rare) disks were authentic since he bought them new, but unfortunately most of them had been modified. This unfortunately happens all the time. Therefore, preservation should not be limited to games that are copy protected, we regard all games the same.
Even so, if it doesn't have disk protection, read errors would be detected by ADF imaging.
Possibly. But we could also say that due to the way we read the disk, we are far more likely to be able to get a good read of "hard to read" tracks.
Or does CAPS have some magic forensic technology that shows modifications?-)
Not magic, but it is very likely the same techniques have been and/or still are used in forensics, yes. On a conceptual level, it is like how it is possible to match a printed page to a printer - we could match a disk to the system that wrote it.

Very basically, since a disk drive is a mechanical analogue device, each system will leave its own "fingerprint" when writing, that is, each system will have their own identifying "crackles and pops" in the "way" they write data. A commercial mastering system uses high-quality components, and so the "fingerprints" look very different, but even if a game was mastered with an Amiga (very rare, but has happened) then we can still see if it has been modfied by another machine.

For more information, please read:
http://www.caps-project.org/articles.php?id=modified

We have actually found a game that we know was "officially modified", Little Computer People. This one certainly confused us for a while... We eventually had to verify the authenticity by contacting the author. You can read the whole report here:
http://www.caps-project.org/articles.php?id=a_lcp

I hope this explains it all better, and I apologise if my previous answers were a bit too vague! :)

shd
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filesystem benefit

Post by shd »

fiath wrote:
Even so, if it doesn't have disk protection, read errors would be detected by ADF imaging.
Possibly. But we could also say that due to the way we read the disk, we are far more likely to be able to get a good read of "hard to read" tracks.
Not commenting on the hard to read tracks, since that is close physics, but error detection is rather good in AFFS (amiga fast file system). There is a 32-bit checksum on each 512 byte sector on an AFFS volume. So after ADF imaging one should verify the files by reading them so that filesystem driver can compute and compare checksums. This gives very good reliability making it better than error detection on disk drive level.

shd / uade team

fiath
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Post by fiath »

Yes, but you do not get that on the disk format, and so a plain ADF tool would not be able to take advantage of it. Maybe there is an advanced ADF tool that does this somewhere? Even if there is, it is pretty irrelevent since you would then rely on the disk being readable in workbench. Even if disks are ADOS disk format, it does not mean they use the ADOS file system and in that case, they are still reduced to the simple parity checks.

For more information on our special reading tracks as I mentioned, see here:
http://www.caps-project.org/articles.php?id=a_recover

Even without the technical advantages discussed in that article, reading each track 5 times as standard will always be more reliable than once. Though of course, that is more a convenience than a technical advantage.

shd
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Post by shd »

fiath wrote:Yes, but you do not get that on the disk format, and so a plain ADF tool would not be able to take advantage of it. Maybe there is an advanced ADF tool that does this somewhere?
Yes, I was talking about ADF images which contain AFFS volumes (or ADOS filesystems in your terms). Only a trivial adf tool is required, since one just needs a copy command and FMS device to detect errors from the dumped disk image. First dump the disk image, then mount the image by using FMS, and then copy all files one by one to, say ram or hard disk, and the operating system will tell if there is errors. Notice that the copy operation is only used to detect errors, the disk image is still the one that is preserved ;)
Even if there is, it is pretty irrelevent since you would then rely on the disk being readable in workbench. Even if disks are ADOS disk format, it does not mean they use the ADOS file system and in that case, they are still reduced to the simple parity checks.
As I was saying it was only about volumes that use AFFS (ADOS file system). And there is huge amount of titles which are pure AFFS. Pretty much any originally hard disk installable game is that. So the method is not irrelevant.

fiath
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Post by fiath »

Okay, so in this specific case for Star Control, being a hard disk installable game, you would probably be able to detect errors with a high level of confidence using the file system checksums. I'll give you that. :)

According to HOL (hol.abime.net), that means you can probably detect about 248 games of the 5000+ in the Amiga's back catalogue. The real number is obviously going to be a bit higher since there would be some other games that use the ADOS file system. Either way, it certanly doesn't work in the general case.

Lets hope they don't have any stealth copy protection either, but I am assuming you would know about Star Control if it had. Most people wouldn't until they perhaps realised the game was acting differently from the original (much harder, can't reach level x, impossible to complete, etc.).

Aside from all that, the resulting disk images from an ADF tool (including hard disk installable ones such as Star Control) are still very bad material for preservation because of my main point - you have no idea whether the data is authentic. See all my posts above.

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